Talk:The Wrath of Heaven
Size of Page? The information on this page is kind of incomprehensible, compared to the other quest pages like The Urn of Sacred Ashes the information isn't concise or to the point. Is the wall of text necessary or am I just overreacting? StagsKilledDragons (talk) 17:42, November 23, 2014 (UTC) : Yeah, I have to agree that this seems awfully dense for a single quest. It doesn't really need to have each and every tiny detail of the location, nor of the minor enemy fights. A wall of text can be really daunting for new users. The images with the User Interface on should be removed as well, per image guidelines, and I'd suggest the area map have the creator's name removed--that info can be put in the summary of the image itself. The placement of the image on the article makes it look as if the entire page was created by a single user, which isn't really in the spirit of the wiki. -- 21:55, November 23, 2014 (UTC) I agree that this is very detailed but that was actually intentional. Sure it may be daunting to new users but I would certainly prefer more rather than less as long as it is accurate. People can read between the lines if they are looking for some specific information which ideally should be there because it contains literally all the information. My vision of an ideal wiki is that of a story that basically that tells you everything you'd ever want to know about every aspect of the game. I'm certainly open to any editing to make it easier to understand but I disagree with the removal of content. Thoughts? If I knew how to remove the creator's map name from the map I would but I didn't see any option for it. --AnuChemicalCo (talk) 03:08, November 24, 2014 (UTC) : I have no idea how you made the map, so I'm afraid I can't offer help there. But I feel very strongly that the name should be removed, either by editing the map or creating it in a different way. If that's not possible, then I think a different map image should be used. For now, I'm going to move it down into a gallery so that the name isn't prominent at the top of the article. 03:17, November 24, 2014 (UTC) I used the insert map function built into the editor --AnuChemicalCo (talk) 03:22, November 24, 2014 (UTC) Yea, I just tried making a test map. It appears built into the wiki editing framework that the username is displayed. Weird. --AnuChemicalCo (talk) 03:26, November 24, 2014 (UTC) Maybe create a page with just area maps to link all the quests to? --AnuChemicalCo (talk) 03:28, November 24, 2014 (UTC) My opinion is that the walkthrough is supposed to help with the game, not retell it. You can't possibly list all the information, you have to stop somewhere. 07:30, November 24, 2014 (UTC) ^^ That was my thought as well. Some of the information seems redudant, such as the view of the breach from the stone bridge and what happens during cutscenes. StagsKilledDragons (talk) 10:58, November 24, 2014 (UTC) Well it seems as though we have a difference of philosophy regarding walkthroughs. Since I haven't seen anyone yet comment in support of my view and since it is a community effort I won't press the issue. It takes a lot of work to fit in the details I had envisioned and I wouldn't be satisfied with anything less so I'll just bow out now. --AnuChemicalCo (talk) 12:11, November 24, 2014 (UTC) : I'll support your point of view AnuChemicalCo. It's the very beginning scene and there are users that don't see the highlight on or can't select the body with the helmet and need a wiki like this to tell them that there even IS one(!) During the very beginning you are being introduced to the entire game universe (interface and experience) and, ok, maybe you do want some brevity, or maybe you don't. If people want surprises, they don't have to read the Wiki. The fact that they're on the Wiki looking at the very first freaking sequence already proves they need extra help. Sometimes people need a resource. This is going to be one of those areas that the most people need the most guidance on, because a lot of people don't finish games (or delay finishing them, or come back to them later), but you get this huge population that starts them. And here, they're starting it in this room/spawning area/"birthing area". And sometimes the initial published version game has bugs, like I had trouble shutting the second rift because I was just standing in this glowing green stuff and didn't know what "key" I was supposed to press (PC). I had no idea what the game wanted me to do until I reloaded and the spawn appeared properly, it was REALLY frustrating OMG! There are people with poor vision who are fine once they understand where things are and what they look like. And some instructions go by super fast, and if you miss an instruction you're kind of screwed because it's never said again (and you can't repeat the cues without saving the game at every twenty seconds in the beginning of the game). And sometimes you just flat out miss a hint, clue, or cue. So, between issues with introductions, bugs, people looking for very clear directions, people missing one of the instructions that goes by in a matter of milliseconds that are easy to miss even if you start reading it or catch a few words of it, people with limitations, and any number of combinations of these (just take a second to imagine the combinations, particularly with bugs!), I would support that it seems fair that a little extra detail here not hurt. You can put that in a different link or something if the wall o text really offends you (standards be d*mned), you can bullet them out, whatever. But there are going to be people that need this detail just because it's the introduction to the entire game experience and interface. Wikispherion (talk) 14:04, December 8, 2014 (UTC) :: I recognize the very impressive work done by AnuChemicalCo, and it should definitely be saved or linked somewhere because it is a good text about this epilogue quest. But here, on this page, it's about balance. And even a beginner surely doesn't need to be retold of what she sees or what exactly the npcs say. I do agree about pointing out loot, directions and other useful advice. With the stress on "useful". But it doesn't mean that the other people here hate storytelling, it just simply means maybe this is not the right place. I am also a new contributor and that's why one of the thumb rules for us should be to look at how things have been done here previously. Kewpies (talk) 15:07, December 8, 2014 (UTC) ::: My point isn't that you can't be abstract, but rather that it shouldn't necessarily be seen through the same lens as other quests. I think the other Dragon Age walkthroughs can be reasonable: :::: Example beginning walkthrough in Dragon Age: Origins (Magi) :::: Example beginning walkthrough in Dragon Age II ::: -- Wikispherion (talk) 17:28, December 8, 2014 (UTC) ::::: I absolutely agree, because I have also looked at these quests. If you compare Anu's version with those you have linked above, you will probably see what the issues are. The above ones are more organized and direct. You are welcome to experiment and make a more organized version of the long text, and then the length of the text is probably not a problem. Heck, most of the info could then be probably added back. But taking a long, confusing paragraph to explain the difference of taking mountain path or charging with soldiers, which actually takes only ca 2-3 minutes and is not a central part of the quest - it is too much. ::::: The mage origin quest is quite different from this one, as the objectives are more split. This quest here is more comparable with Destruction of Lothering, imho - which has much, much less details! Also - in DA:I the introductions continue throughout The Threat Remains in Haven and Hinterlands, so there is no need to overdo The Wrath of Heaven. With that said, I will accept an extensive walkthrough as long as it is not a wall of text with important and less-important things freely mixed in, simply - when it is readable and easy to follow. Post your version and lets discuss it. <- Kewpies (talk) 18:34, December 8, 2014 (UTC) :::::: I don't have a problem with that at all, however I haven't done these before and I'm kind of hurting on time (just felt that this was an important topic), so I can really only take a quick look at others. I guess I had kind of read into what people were saying as taking a lot of (what can be) important information out. Wikispherion (talk) 23:20, December 8, 2014 (UTC) indent It's not about taking out important information, it's about making the information concise and understandable, with only essential information detailed. As an example: having a list of the containers in the area and what they contain (whether specific items or random) is more than adequate; detailing exactly where they're found is not really necessary, especially with the ability to hit a button and have notable items highlighted. The work on this article from the beginning has been great, but there are times to re-evaluate articles and see if the information can be presented in a different way that may be more helpful. That's one of the things I love most about the collaborative process of wikis. No information is truly lost either, it's all recorded in the article's history. -- 23:34, December 8, 2014 (UTC) Dialogue Options Should we do a separate page for quest dialogue choices? Looking at the individual characters pages sort of gives it some clarity but it might be better to have a page for each quest and the dialogue choices. Just looking for opinions. Demon Scales after Boss Fight "Make sure to loot the Demon Scales before closing the Rift, they're a valuable research item." Where are these scales? the pride demon is unlootable and i've seen nothing lootable in the area. Bump: Cleanup? The page is looking quite good already, but I think there is too much text and small details. You've put down good and essential information, but we need to filter the text a bit more now. Sentences in style "take two steps right and loot an Elfroot" is almost rewriting the whole story. I'll take a look at the page soon, but til then - The Destruction of Lothering, Human Noble Origin, Joining the Grey Wardens .. for inspiration some notes: * summarize! The focus should be on what happens, but not necessarily a detailed "how". With the exception of more complex quests or strategies (which this is not) * move/separate things that can be separated, like approval, results, consequences of different choices. * should we reveal everything? I love the pages, where essential info is given, yet there are some things left for me to discover. E.g. "when talking to Anders, if you choose option "X", he unexpectedly cracks a joke and gives you +10000 approval". Perfect! Or, using "secret companion" when referring to a certain companion in Origins :) Kewpies (talk) 23:33, December 5, 2014 (UTC) : I think the reason for the "secret companion" link was because that particular character was initially a companion, then not, then added back in later. So during the time that it was not possible for him to be a companion, the character was referred to as the secret companion. : In terms of cleanup, near the beginning of the walkthrough in the section Get to the Rift with Cassandra, there's a link that reads "The wraiths will likely drop the first creature research item". The link creature research item is non-existent. Perhaps the author intended research items, but I don't see a page for both types of research in the DA:I wiki. Wikispherion (talk) 13:08, December 8, 2014 (UTC) :: Yeah, I was hoping a page about creature research would pop up at some point, but until then I removed the link. Hm.. and then, I did remove the whole sentence, because the drop rate is not confirmed. A creature research item *might* drop during the quest, but it is not necessarily *this* group of mobs. But maybe we should mention it nevertheless, in notes or elsewhere... It's really rather important. Feel free to add it somewhere! :) Kewpies (talk) 18:41, December 8, 2014 (UTC) Approval changes This section should be looked at (I haven't got a good overview there, just pasted everything I found in the text). Kewpies (talk) 15:09, December 8, 2014 (UTC) Codex entries These codex entries are found during the quest. It's a big list. Should it be included? *Either Cadash, of the Casteless; Lavellan, of the Dalish or Trevalyan, the Free Marcher (depending on the player's race) *Codex: Cassandra Pentaghast *Codex: Divine Justinia V *Codex: The Carta (if playing a dwarf) *Codex: The Conclave *Codex: The Breach *Codex: Status Effects *Codex: Shade *Codex: Elfroot (if looted) *Codex: Wraith *Codex: Solas *Codex: Varric *Codex: Tactical Camera *Codex: Fade Rifts *Codex: Character Record *Codex: High Chancellor Roderick *Codex: Foot Soldier *Codex: Temple of Sacred Ashes, Rediscovered *Codex: Red Lyrium *Codex: Pride Demon Kewpies (talk) 15:12, December 8, 2014 (UTC) * It is long, but I think the codex entries are important enough that they should be included in a list. -- 23:36, December 8, 2014 (UTC) ::I've added the list now (entries in order of appearance). Skipped elfroot and foot soldier because these can theoretically be obtained later (Foot soldier is obtained if you choose to charge forward with the soldiers. And maybe not everyone loots an elfroot there) <- Kewpies (talk) 21:41, December 15, 2014 (UTC)